Defence psychiatrist agrees self-report of insanity by Loafers Lodge accused 'unreliable'

A psychiatrist who assessed the man who lit the fatal Loafers Lodge fire as insane at the time says he did not put much weight on alternatives to insanity or inconsistencies in the defendant's story.

The 50-year-old defendant has denied murdering five people by setting the Wellington boarding house alight on 16 May, 2023

His lawyers said he was insane at the time, but the Crown said he knew lighting the fire was morally wrong and could kill people.

Defence witness, psychiatrist Dr Krishna Pillai on Monday told the High Court in Wellington he believed the man was insane and had no intention of hurting anyone.

Crown lawyer Stephanie Bishop on Tuesday continued her cross-examination, suggesting Pillai placed the defendant's "self-report" about what happened that night and his mental state, over other evidence.

Pillai went on to agree the man's self-report was unreliable.

Lack of evidence of a 'serious psychotic relapse'

Bishop pointed to the CCTV of the defendant during his week-long tenancy at Loafers Lodge, and suggested it contained no evidence he was having a "serious psychotic relapse" Pillai described.

She said clinical evidence had shown when the man had been seriously unwell in the past, he exhibited certain behaviour which was not evident in the videos.

"We don't see those sorts of behaviours... crawling around the floor sniffing blood and these sorts of things," Pillai replied.

"But I think we see development of these sorts of behaviours and notably, even the index offence might be an example of the escalation of the behaviour in relation to psychosis."

Pillai agreed there was very little indication in the hours of CCTV footage that the man was suffering from a serious psychotic episode when he lit the fires.

But he said the limited evidence did appear to be clustered towards the night of the fires.

Pillai also agreed that another doctor's report of an interview with the defendant while he was in police cells after his arrest documented behaviour and presentation "inconsistent" with a relapse.

But he said it was common that a one-off assessment would fail to elicit psychotic symptoms.

Reliance on the defendant's 'inconsistent' account

Pillai said he placed a "reasonable" amount of weight on what the defendant told him about lighting the fire, and his mental state, when he assessed him as insane.

But he said the man was an "unreliable historian" and agreed that without the defendant's "self-report" the remaining evidence did not show he was seriously unwell.

Bishop said five other psychiatrists, who have or will testify in court, explicitly considered the unreliability of what the defendant told them and others, with his story changing between them.

"Please explain to the court why you have not addressed this elephant in the room, that all five other experts say that [the defendant's] accounts are unreliable?" Bishop asked.

Pillai replied: "There's a variety of reasons why his accounts are unreliable, or change over time... He tends to try and please, to say what he thinks other people want to hear."

It could be more concerning if the man's account had stayed exactly the same, suggesting a "rehearsed story", Pillai said.

Pillai agreed he considered the defendant "truthful", despite knowing he lied to the police by denying lighting the fires.

He said the man may have initially denied the offending to avoid criminal responsibility - but he "didn't put much weight on that" in his assessment.

It was "not uncommon" for someone to admit what they had done only after they had been sufficiently treated for their mental illness, Pillai said.

Bishop said on August 31, 2023, the man "all of a sudden" switched from telling people he was well and was not hearing voices, to saying he was unwell and lit the fire because voices in his head told him to.

That was about the time the man's lawyers were considering his plea and engaged Pillai, she said.

Pillai said he likely only incriminated himself when he had a lawyer and felt safe to do so.

"He was, I believe, unwell and hearing voices when he lit the fires," he said.

"It's not based upon his self-report, but upon the chronicity of his illness and observations of others around the time."

Alternatives to insanity and moral wrongfulness

Pillai said he had not meaningfully considered other reasons why the defendant may have lit the fire, other than his mental illness.

For example, other experts noted the man did not like living at Loafers Lodge, but Pillai said he had not taken that into account.

Bishop suggested he had gone through the evidence and looked specifically for evidence that's consistent with mental illness.

"Yes," Pillai said.

Bishop also listed examples that she suggested proved the defendant knew lighting the fires was morally wrong.

In various interviews with psychiatrists - and with Pillai himself - the man said things like "I thought, it's wrong, I shouldn't do it", "people might get hurt in there" and "I hope they get all the innocent people out", and reported feeling bad for Loafers Lodge residents and the victims' families.

Those indicated that he knew it was legally wrong, Pillai said.

He agreed those examples gave some indication he knew it was morally wrong, too - but said given the man's mental state at the time and persistent feelings of persecution, there was a "strong moral imperative" for him to have lit the fire.

Psychiatrist sticks to his opinion

Defence lawyer Steve Gill asked Pillai whether Bishop's questioning had changed his opinion that the man was insane when he lit the fire.

"They've certainly given me pause for thought," he said.

"At the final point I find myself slightly on the other side of the balance ledger, I've formed an opinion that through his life experience, through his temperament, through his mental illness... that on the balance I thought he was incapable of understanding the moral wrongfulness of the fire."

The trial continues with the Crown set to call expert witnesses to rebut the defence of insanity.

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